Talk:Sanskrit

Suggested changes to "Origin and Development" Section

Given the discussion above about the content related to PIE in the history section, maybe we can come to consensus on which changes would be beneficial.

I agree that PIE is relevant to Sanskrit, but I think there is some room for concision. For example, the fact that Sanskrit was one of the earliest languages to arise from PIE is relevant to the Sanskrit page. But the question of which were the three earliest languages to arise from PIE is a question for the PIE page. So we do not need include a list of all the languages.

Everything after the paragraph starting with "Colonial era scholars" no longer falls under "Origin and Development." It definitely gives a perspective on the origin and development of the theory that explains Sanskrit's origin, but it is not directly explaining the development of Sanskrit. In order to stick to explaining the history of Sanskrit itself, I think it would be good to shift this part to the PIE page itself. Swirlymarigold (talk) 14:21, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Looking at the PIE page, the "Development of the hypothesis" section specifically talks about the comparative method. The comparative chart from this page would be a great addition to that section on the PIE page. Swirlymarigold (talk) 15:01, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

@Swirlymarigold I think the suggestions are good, and would also help with article's length. But Joshua had some concerns above - @Joshua Jonathan what do you think about the suggestions here? Asteramellus (talk) 01:13, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I have copied the information on this page that was more relevant to PIE in general, to that page. Does anyone have further thoughts on specific changes for this page? If not, I can go ahead with the changes proposed here. Swirlymarigold (talk) 02:52, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Suggested changes to the history section

This does a better job of placing Sanskrit within the broader context of earliest-recorded Indo-European languages, as the history section should:

Sanskrit is one of several varieties of languages belonging to the Indo-European family for which text was either recorded in or has been linguistically dated to have composed in the 2nd Millennium BCE (see List of languages by first written account).

Languages in the Indo-European family recorded in the 2nd Millennium BCE:

• Hittite (Hittite cuneiform text from c. 1700 BCE)
• Luwian (loan words in Old Assyrian documents from c. 1950 and 1700 BCE, Cuneiform Luwian tablets from c. 16th to 13th centuries BCE)
• Mycenaean Greek (Linear B tablet from c. 1450 BCE)
• Mitanni-Aryan (loan words in Hurrian cuneiform from c. 1400 BCE)

Text in an Indo-European language that can be linguistically dated to the 2nd Millennium BCE:

• Vedic Sanskrit (Ṛg-vedic linguistically dated to c. 1700-1500 BCE)
• Old Avestan (linguistically dated to c. 1500-900 BCE)

Noting the most closely related recorded languages and the other more distantly related recorded ancient languages:

As belonging to the Iranian sub-branch of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europan languages, Old Avestan is the closest recorded language to Sanskrit for which extensive text is available. However, some two dozen words and personal names of a language that is considered to be Old Indo-Aryan are attested in clay tablets from northern Syria and Iraq from the 14th century BCE, and is thus the closest recorded language to Sanskrit. Other recorded ancient languages belonging to Old Iranian - Old Persian (6th-4th century BCE) and Younger Avestan (c. 900 BCE–400 BCE) - form the next group of closest recorded ancient languages, followed by varietis of Middle Iranian languages (Parthian, Bactrian, Middle Persian…). Other recorded ancient Indo-European languages more distantly related to Sanskrit are Ancient Greek (c. 750–400 BCE), archaic and Classical Latin (c. 600 BCE–100 CE, and other Italic languages), Gothic (archaic Germanic language, c. 350 CE), Lycian (c. 500–200 BCE), Lydian (c. 700–200 BCE), and Old Phrygian (c. 800–330 BCE).

Noting the distinction between Sanskrit and Proto-Indo-Aryan:

While Sanksrit or Vedic Sanskrit is often considered to be the parent of all Indo-Aryan languages, linguists consider the hypothetical and reconstructed Proto-Indo-Aryan language to be the parent of all Indo-Aryan languages, with Vedic Sanskrit being an early daugter language. Proto-Indo-Aryan is reconstructed based on comparative work with old varieties of Iranian and recorded Middle Indo-Aryan languages, which preserve some archaisms lost in Vedic Sanskrit.

Nuristani as “the closest ancient relatives of Vedic Sanskrit in the Indo-European languages”

I don’t know who put this here but Nuristani has been written down in the 19th century.

Expansion on the note on Satem:

Sanskrit belongs to the Satem group of the Indo-European langages, which also includes the Balto-Slavic branch of the Indo-European langages besides other varieties of Indo-Iranian such as Iranian and Nuristani.

A short section on the linguistic understanding of the development of Vedic Sanskrit

The linguistic understanding of the development of Vedic Sanskrit is thus: Proto-Indo-European → Proto-Indo-Iranian → Proto-Indo-Aryan → Vedic Sanskrit.

So here it how it all stands:

Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It is one of several varieties of languages belonging to the Indo-European family for which text was either recorded in or has been linguistically dated to have composed in the 2nd Millennium BCE (see List of languages by first written account).

Languages in the Indo-European family recorded in the 2nd Millennium BCE:

• Hittite (Hittite cuneiform text from c. 1700 BCE)
• Luwian (loan words in Old Assyrian documents from c. 1950 and 1700 BCE, Cuneiform Luwian tablets from c. 16th to 13th centuries BCE)
• Mycenaean Greek (Linear B tablet from c. 1450 BCE)
• Mitanni-Aryan (loan words in Hurrian cuneiform from c. 1400 BCE)

Text in an Indo-European language that can be linguistically dated to the 2nd Millennium BCE:

• Vedic Sanskrit (Ṛg-vedic linguistically dated to c. 1700-1500 BCE)
• Old Avestan (linguistically dated to c. 1500-900 BCE)

As belonging to the Iranian sub-branch of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europan languages, Old Avestan is the closest recorded language to Sanskrit for which extensive text is available. However, some two dozen words and personal names of a language that is considered to be Old Indo-Aryan are attested in clay tablets from northern Syria and Iraq from the 14th century BCE, and is thus the closest recorded language to Sanskrit. Other recorded ancient languages belonging to Old Iranian - Old Persian (6th-4th century BCE) and Younger Avestan (c. 900 BCE–400 BCE) - form the next group of closest recorded ancient languages, followed by varietis of Middle Iranian languages (Parthian, Bactrian, Middle Persian…). Other recorded ancient Indo-European languages more distantly related to Sanskrit are Ancient Greek (c. 750–400 BCE), archaic and Classical Latin (c. 600 BCE–100 CE, and other Italic languages), Gothic (archaic Germanic language, c. 350 CE), Lycian (c. 500–200 BCE), Lydian (c. 700–200 BCE), and Old Phrygian (c. 800–330 BCE).

The linguistic understanding of the development of Vedic Sanskrit is thus: Proto-Indo-European → Proto-Indo-Iranian → Proto-Indo-Aryan → Vedic Sanskrit.

Sanskrit belongs to the Satem group of the Indo-European langages, which also includes the Balto-Slavic branch of the Indo-European langages besides other varieties of Indo-Iranian such as Iranian and Nuristani.

While Sanksrit or Vedic Sanskrit is often considered to be the parent of all Indo-Aryan languages, linguists consider the hypothetical and reconstructed Proto-Indo-Aryan language to be the parent of all Indo-Aryan languages, with Vedic Sanskrit being an early daugter language. Proto-Indo-Aryan is reconstructed based on comparative work with old varieties of Iranian and recorded Middle Indo-Aryan languages, which preserve some archaisms lost in Vedic Sanskrit.

Mynameisgone (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I understand that information about the development of Sanskrit is important to include in the history section, but I do not think that all the details you have written out are relevant for this page. Information about "Languages in the Indo-European family recorded in the 2nd Millennium BCE" belongs on a page dedicated to Indo-European languages, not Sanskrit. I also do not understand the reasoning behind listing out every remotely related language to Sanskrit. I think it is enough to say that Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-European language family and keep the "See also" template to point readers to where they can find more details.

Besides that, the information here would also need sources if not already in the article. Swirlymarigold (talk) 02:55, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, Swirlymarigold. The reason actually arose because "It is one of the three earliest ancient documented languages that arose from a common root language now referred to as Proto-Indo-European is actually incorrect. The article then goes forward and lists three of the actual 6 that Sanskrit is part of. That's a factual concern, as is the aim that seems to have been adopted in the article to note the "closest ancient relatives of Vedic Sanskrit in the Indo-European languages," which Nuristani is definitely not. The suggested changes aim to fix those. The suggested changes also aim to fix the "other Indo-European languages distantly related to Sanskrit." For the last, I kept Germanic because its important on the world stage but limited it to languages from the 1st Millennium BCE. Regards and thank you!

Mynameisgone (talk) 11:39, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I see, then perhaps the factual accuracies of statements related to PIE would still be a concern for the PIE page. I think the part about the closest recorded language to Sanskrit is important, but the description is a bit roundabout. I am thinking that it would suffice to state that Old Indo-Aryan is the closest recorded language to Sanskrit, and put the relevant source. I am not sure that listing all the distantly related languages is helpful here as much as it would be on the PIE page since that is the place to get an overview of how all the language families are related. Swirlymarigold (talk) 22:29, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks again. Plase bear, I request and hope as we and others possibly try to sort this out. Thanks. It's lengthy, I agree but the only way I could think of to resolve issues I would say. Firstly, let me tell you that I do think Sanskrit is sort of a sacred language because it's got vocabulary that no other language can express. But it's base material at least is "Indo-Aryan"/"Indo-Iranian"/"Indo-European." Sadly, we can't deal with the spiritual part in an article like this... unless we can.

Thinking of the things that I thought are problems:

• "It is one of the three earliest ancient documented languages that arose:" it's actually one of 6
• Most closely related ancient languages: we can just mention Mitanni-Aryan, Mitanni Aryan (people use different terminology, check Google Books) and Old Avestan
• More distantly related languages: I think people put this to mention Ancient Greek and Latin. Now, should we include other languages, and if so, should we include more recognizable ones like Armenian and Old Norse, and comparably more recognizable like Gothic and Old Church Slavonic or the more ancient ones no one has heard of? Those unrecognizable ones are more like Greek and Latin because they are comparably ancient.

Regards.Mynameisgone (talk) 02:06, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

So I thought this will be better:

Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It is one of several varieties of Indo-European languages that were first recorded or in which text was composed in the 2nd Millennium BCE:

• Hittite (Hittite cuneiform text from c. 1700 BCE)
• Luwian (loan words in Old Assyrian documents from c. 1950 and 1700 BCE, Cuneiform Luwian tablets from c. 16th to 13th centuries BCE)
• Mycenaean Greek (Linear B tablet from c. 1450 BCE)
• Mitanni-Aryan (loan words in Hurrian cuneiform from c. 1400 BCE)
• Vedic Sanskrit (Ṛg-vedic linguistically dated to c. 1700-1500 BCE)
• Old Avestan (linguistically dated to c. 1500-900 BCE)

Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages and is understood to have developed from Proto-Indo-European through two precursor languages: Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-Aryan. Old Avestan (belonging to the Iranian sub-branch of the Indo-Iranian branch) and Mitanni-Aryan comprise the closest recorded ancient languages. More closely related to other Old Iranian languages, Sanskrit is also more distantly related to other ancient Indo-European languages such as Ancient Greek and Classical Latin, and many other ancient and modern languages belonging to the Indo-European family.

Let's not neglect the Indo-European heritage of this sacred language! Cheers.Mynameisgone (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

You seem to have made a list of blue links. Please explain in words, i.e. in comprehensible prose, what you are attempting to do, and why it is needed on the Sanskrit page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:53, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

why doid the south asia invented the sanskirt number systems

87.195.37.206 (talk) 11:05, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Please read the quotes in the citations to the sentence. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:10, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Native speakers

Though this is a lesser known fact, but some villages in the Indian state of Karnataka and Kerala use Sanskrit and it is their native mother tounge. Please, a request to go through this subject so as to improve the page... IND123456 (talk) 09:43, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

This is not the case. It's a gimmick. People don't become native speakers overnight. Please see the sources in the lead that address this very misrepresentation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

I will check and revert. Thank you IND123456 (talk) 10:18, 25 April 2025 (UTC)